TRANSCRIPTION OF AN INTERVIEW WITH MY FATHER

(car starts)

So I thought we would take a drive up to dripping springs, same as yesterday. Ok. So, this doesn't have to be very formal by any means.

Is this going to be combined with the video footage and pictures that you've been taking?

Right now I don't completely know, but as of know it seems like I might use the information from these audio recordings - maybe not directly - with lots of video in landscapes with me narrating over it, but I'm not really sure what that text will be, so this is more like research for writing what I will later speak, gathering ideas. I guess I wanted to start by asking what you make of all that, what do you think I have been doing?

I haven't thought a whole lot about it. It's a new form of art or something that you haven't tried before that you think would be interesting to try, to take advantage of the environment and being with us, and maybe something will come together. That's about as much as I've thought about it.

Well what about here, more in general not so much concerning this project. Why do you think I came here for these three months?

I take you for your word, when you said you wanted to come, based on the multiple times that we had said it would be nice if we were closer together that if it had worked out somehow for you to find a place you really wanted to be, that you found something that really excited you to do, and that place where you were happy being was a place where we could be closer to you. So based on those conversations you decided that you had some time and that it would be good to come for three months just to kinda reunite and for us to be closer together again, not under the circumstances that we had been thinking or talking about though! I mean right under our roof, in our house, is way different than being involved in a job or a project and living there and we coming to see you and you visiting us - that's a whole different environment. But I believe that's why you said you wanted to come, to get closer, to reunite, to connect again at this stage in our lives.

And do you think that we've been doing that?

Yeah I think we have.

Do you feel good about the last three months?

I felt better about the last three months as time went on, ya know? We've been apart a long time, a long time, so it was less comfortable only seeing you a couple times a year and not being able to fully explore the difference in our life philosophies, where you are compared to where I am in life, so I think over the last three months we've talked alot about that. We didn't move the bench mark very far one way or another, you are still who you are and I am still the same as who I was, we just talked about it a little bit more and talking usually creates a better understanding.

Well naturally we're still ourselves... were you anticipating some kind of change?

No. Nope.

Before I came here - or when I first arrived - you had stated that you were apprehensive about your personal space being infringed upon, of your own territory being encroached upon, and felt like you needed to iterate that you were to be protective of your routine and your state of mind... maybe you could put it in your own words?

Is there a question in there somewhere?

I'm wondering if you still feel that way or if you think I have invaded your comfort by being here?

I still feel the same way, and I feel that you did encroach, because of exactly what you noted. It's not a big space and it was intended for mom and I only. It is our retirement home, just our home, and when we have guests it's for short periods of time and we can accommodate them very well, but anyone being there, even our son whom we are madly in love with, anyone being there - don't take it personally - would make me feel that way, especially for three and a half months. When Larry and Debby came out here from New York and they stayed from September to January, that was tough, way tougher of course than having you, but yeah... I don't see it as a negative thing. I view it as being simply that mom and I love our home, we love being in it together, it is intended for us, and any time that an warm bodies are in there for an extended period of time I feel like it's not the same, not how it should be.

Not the same as when it's just the two of you?

Yes, and unless you're a person that doesn't have any consideration for other people of course you're going to modify your routine a little bit, of course you're going to adapt, of course you're going to accept things that are not typically present and deal with them. It causes you to have to deal with another persons life, so therefore you have to make considerations and change how you would normally live, so yeah... I still feel the same way.

Do you think that change that you experience when someone is in your space, is that a mental change or is it something you feel some other way? Does your house feel differently, or do you feel differently when others are present, compared to this more ideal state when it's just the two of you? How would you describe that feeling?

Not as relaxed, because of the considerations you make for other people, ya know. Our grocery list is different, our cleaning habits are different, our shopping habits are different, we've spent way more money while you have been living with us than we normally would, as a consideration of your being there. It takes us out of our normal routines and patterns and we don't want those patterns and routines to change. Well... I can't speak for Rose 100%. I don't want them to change - I can say that definitively. It's been a positive thing, I'm happy it happened, I'm happy we had the time together, but I wouldn't want you living in the house all year long, I just wouldn't want it! If we had a big house with separate living quarters, where you could come and go and you felt free and pleased to do, and we could come and go and our morning habits could stay the same, and nothing would change, if you had your own space and we had ours, that would be a whole lot different. That's what I was talking about when we were talking about going up to Albuquerque, when we were thinking about moving. The idea was that we would have a main house and there would be other buildings on the property, another living space, a garage, outdoor space, and we could all come and go as we pleased and life wouldn't change. But all under one roof is a problem for me.

I think that what I've been doing here is trying to articulate a project which seems to be more and more about origins. I use this word and it makes intuitive sense to me, but I would explain it as a meditation on the beginning of patterns which we are occupied in the present, say of these patterns that you have in your life, that you have spent time building up and getting situated and comfortable with... I'm interested in where those patterns come from, and if recognizing them says something about where you come from. Who are you and how do you define yourself... are these patterns you, or are they attached to you? Are they something that you keep that are somehow separate from you, but important nonethless? Do you think of them - these patterned ways of thinking - as things? Or are they more subconscious perhaps? How do you think of them, and where do you think they come from?

The routines and patterns of my life? Is that what you're asking me? Where do they come from?

Well, yes. You are describing this way that you have, that you like to live, and I'm wondering where that preference comes from.

I think it comes from my entire life, starting as a really small boy living with my parents in that house with so many people. We established policies and practices in the house - rotation through the bathroom and who would cut the wood and who would start the fireplace - everybody had little chores so it was - right from the very beginning of my life - a necessity to organize myself and to have a plan to make this household work with all these people, with very little money, and we have to make do and stretch every dime that we have and everybody has to do their part. That stuck with me, so when I went into highschool I had the mentality - and I'm not sure if I'm relating it to that childhood experience very well, but suddenly this independent way of thinking came on me. "I don't want to live around all those people. I don't want to live in a house with all those people. I don't really want to join clubs - sports is one thing but after that's over I'm not going to hang out with the same people I play sports with." I became very solemn and independent. I took business classes all through high school. I didn't take the college prep courses, I took all business math and business law and business studies, that was my interest, so when I got into the business world all that independence developed into really good organizational skills and financial ways of thinking and I became this very private, organized individual that not only embraced privacy - socializing with the few rather than the many - but that positioning became a way of life, of habit. I'm not a social person, I'm a private person. I like that independence of being private and self-sustaining. A lot of people talk about how if they are good people the world will take care of them, god will take care of them, but I never thought that way. I always thought that you go out there and you earn it, you go out and get it, you do whatever it takes to provide for yourself, and that makes one less individual that anyone else has to worry about taking care of. So I've always taken care of myself very well and have been very fortunate not to have any disasters or any health issues or accidents or anything to interrupt my constant focus on taking care of ourselves, so when we got married - Rose and I - we took care of each other. She has gradually over the years has come to join me in her independence and her solitude, and she has to get out every once in awhile to convene with a person or two, but she doesn't deal with those crowds anymore, doesn't crave that social atmosphere anymore, and I'm sure I've influenced her in that way - rightly, wrongly, or ambivalently. So I think it's been developing from the time I was very small, starting out with all those people somehow influenced me to feel I wanted to be more private, on my own, and I developed that independence. I couldn't wait to get out of that small town I grew up in and when I got that offer to go to Northland College on a football scholarship, that they were gonna help pay for most of it, that was "wow, this is what I need, I need to get away from here no matter where it is." I never would have chosen Wisconsin, but it was somewhere away from there, and I knew that I needed that in order to develop independently in my life practices.

Would you say that you are an anti-social person?

I wouldn't go that far because... I mean yes, as far as "do I seek out social involvement and gatherings?" Well, no, however when I'm in those environments I socialize - I feel - well and people have a tendency to like me and want to reach out to me and pull me in so that we can socialize more. I have a tendency to resist that. I'm not rude about it, but generally over a short period of time they get the idea that I'm not gonna be hanging around all the time. But no, when I'm in those social environments I feel comfortable, I enjoy it, I'm received well, and people seem to want me to be around them more. I resist it. So, sorta anti-social but not fanatical about it.

Do you perceive any negative consequences or repercussions from your independence, your privacy?

Early on I would say no. In school and in my business life I had ample social involvement. I had to. I was in class, in business meetings, talking to customers, training employees, so I was constantly dealing with people, so I had to give and take, throw around ideas all the time so there was a lot more learning from others, learning from the system, staying up on educational issues so I could deal with professional intelligent people on a regular basis. I would say it has been more detrimental to me since I retired because now I'm not around as many people kicking ideas around and sharing experiences and offering challenge to thoughts and beliefs, so I would think as time goes by it will be even more detrimental because I will only be learning from my past experiences and anything I read, which is not as broad as having many people sharing their perspectives and understanding that they have good things to say and combining that with what I have to say, getting all those opportunities to learn more. So no... throughout my life I would say it has not been detrimental preferring and seeking solitude, but when I retired and it became just mom and I kicking ideas around, whatever we read or whatever we pick up in the media, it became different.

Ok, I wanted to go back to this other word you used to describe yourself - besides being private you mentioned being organized. I've always known this has been a big part of your life and we have discussed on a few occasions how I read into those characteristics, for better or for worse. I think that these attributes have importance on numerous levels - depending on how you want to think about - but I see it as a ritual, a careful attention and consideration of your environment, a very deliberate arrangement of a space, and is related to your desire for privacy in that way. I have tried to suggest that this could be seen as a creative outlet for you, or... I had never heard of this concept until mom told me about it recently, but the Japanese concept of Ikigai...

What is it?

Ikigai is the Japanese word for one's purpose or meaning in life. She read a book about longevity and prosperity in aging persons, about these "blue zone" communities where individuals live to extraordinary old age, over 100 years old, and long story short some scientists tried to uncover how this is possible - is it the food, is it the water, is it something in the environment? The answer is yes, all those elements factor is, but the most important thing is this Ikigai, their reason for getting up in the morning, as she says. Well... you surprised me on one occasion, stating that some things simply do not have meaning, which is fine and you're entitled to that - I don't think that's necessarily a negative statement in itself - but it strikes me as interesting in trying to uncover how you think about these things, these patterns and routines that make up your life, the rituals you conduct, do you thin of them as having meaning?

The thought that came to mind when you said that I - and I don't remember saying it but it sounds like something I would say for sure - that some things don't have meaning, I think.... that some things don't warrant enough consideration to worry about if it has meaning. Let's talk about my habit of being organized then. I like everything in its place. I don't like things to be moved around. I mean at the time you're using it then fine it's not in its place but you always put it back, always where you can find it. I'm too lazy to be looking for stuff. I want to know exactly where it is when I need it and I like it to be clean, I like it to be organized, I like it to be replenished when it needs replenishing, I like to know when it needs to be replenished, it's just the way my mind works. It's like accounting. I would be a very good accountant. I would make a very good financial advisor. My organizational skills and the way my mind works when it comes to dollars and cents would lend itself to being very accurate with calculations, and I also feel that I would be excellent at analytical skills involving those numbers to project and advise a direction that someone could take to better utilize their resources. I don't see.... "what is the meaning of that?" I don't feel that creates a meaning for my life, I just have always accepted that I like being organized and I'm good with numbers. I have just accepted that and I don't know that there's a meaning there except that it has served me well, because in the business world both of those characteristics are necessary to be successful, along with many others, but those two are very important and they just came naturally to me. Not a whole lot of talent does come naturally to me. About the only thing that does is that tendency to be organized, to not only understand the organization but to be able to read into it, project future action that makes sense based on the foundation it sits upon, and seeing where it will move. I never much read into "what is the meaning" of my having these skills.

What about your relationship to the things or the spaces? You put a lot of energy into your considerations, it take a lot of energy to maintain your focus of attention, and - you haven't said this exactly but I imagine that if something is out of place it affects you emotionally or psychologically, that there's a connection there between the placement of the thing or perhaps in a wider scope between that thing and its environment, in the context of the space. If it's disheveled, unorganized, if you go looking for something and you can't find it, or it's not clean or replenished, it negatively affects you, but when it is in its place and clean and well stocked perhaps it serves as a source of comfort, or satisfaction, or even pleasure.

My opinion is very low peaks and valleys. If this is the center line (puts out hand flat in the air) and frustration is higher and satisfaction is lower on that scale, the peak might go up to frustration temporarily - ah a cuss word and "I thought I had it but where is it" - and then it goes back down to fairly flat and you know... "ok, well that means I have to take a few extra minutes to go get it" rather than just putting my hand on it and using it, but it's nothing that... or if I see pillows that are out of place or on the floor that are supposed to be on the sofa, sure I look at it and think that "those pillows should be on the sofa" but I'm not such a fanatic about it that it causes me to have stress or I'm in the other room thinking "man I gotta go in the other room and pick up the pillows." No I'm not so concerned. I know that eventually the pillows will be back where they're supposed to be, someone else will put them there, and I'm fine with that. I think the organizational skills and me wanting everything in it's place is this flat line (emphasizing with hand) and it does agitate me a little bit so it peaks up in frustration and when we clean the house and everything is perfect and I know it's going to be like that for 3 or 4 days, sure I feel a little bit of satisfaction about everything being in its place all clean and presentable. I don't think they're high peaks or low valleys. I stay pretty flat when it comes to that, it's just who I am, it's just how I live, it's just the way I've always lived, it just comes naturally to me, it just makes me feel comfortable when things are in place, but I don't get bent out of shape when it's way out and I... well, like you saying that I do a good job on the landscaping... I haven't - like someone like yourself - sat back and looked at it for an hour and thought about how "I want to do this to that plant and make this one look that way." I call it a 'once around,' it's a once around the house, starting from the right side I do a circle around the house, as I go by it I see it and shape it up, trim it, clean it if it needs cleaning, I don't think about a shape I previously had in mind I just clean it up and I move around the house until everything is pretty much in order and looking good and come out the other end and throw all the dirt away and that's the whole extent that I think about it. As far as my attention goes, I think "oh I should do a 'once around' the house today and clean everything up and throw out the debris until the next time," and then maybe the next time comes and there's not thought in advance, I just go do it.

You don't think you have any emotional or psychological attachment to these things or these places that you prepare, that you organize?

Emotional is such a way that if I lost it I would be affected somehow?

Maybe.

No, I'm not big on things, objects... If I have things I want them to be in the best possible shape that I can keep them within my abilities, but again, if it gets to a point where it's not in that kind of shape or I can't maintain it anymore I just get rid of it and get another one. I don't hold on, I don't have a lot of things I've had since... I don't save things from back when I was a kid... I have one box of stuff that I had from college, sports and stuff, but I don't keep a lot of stuff. I'm not sentimental with stuff. Things are just things, I don't put any emphasis on owning them, just caring for them.

You said you have always been this way. Is that to say for as long as you can remember? As long as you have been self-conscious you feel as you have been the same person, with the same kind of temperament, exercising the same patterns?

I have been more of a wild man that I am now, it's hard to believe I know, but yeah but pretty much. Maybe a little more dramatic as a young man, more testosterone, adrenaline running through my body from time to time, but basically the same person. I remember one time - this might be related to your question but not exactly - I was maybe a sophomore or junior in high school and Dad had a thunderbird with suicide doors and I wanted to ask him if I could take the car to prom and I wasn't sure how he was going to respond to that but you build up the nerve, you ask, and he said "absolutely son go enjoy yourself" and I opened up the car and it was a disaster. I mean it was dirt, and food, and stains, and "wow I can't have my girlfriend in this car." So it took me hours of work on the day of the prom to go through that vehicle to get it to my standards, which was absolutely clean, no stains, washed and waxed, wheels all cleaned up, even cleaned out the engine ya know, and when I gave it back to him it was like a brand new car. It was one of the best decisions he ever made to give me that car because when he got it back he didn't recognize it. I've always had a necessity to be in a clean organized environment, and that's a pride thing too because I want other people to get in and be impressed, get into the car or come into the house and view anything that we have and it's not about the thing or the beauty of the thing or the design of the thing, it's about how well I take care of it and how presentable it is, the pride it demonstrates to get into that car and have them know immediately that their environment is so clean. That gives me gratification. I would never say "isn't this a nice Thunderbird," I would never say that, but when you get in, this Thunderbird represents a big part of who I am, this is how I want you to see the Thunderbird because this is how I feel, that things need to be prideful.

Not so much the Thunderbird as a choice in a car, but the presentation, the quality of attention that you have applied to that car...

That's just as much - if not more so - a reflection of me than the automobile is. People might be impressed if you have a Mercedes, but if the car is not taken care of, no pride in it, it's not as meaningful than if you had a lesser vehicle that is presented in such a way that makes me feel good just to be in it.

I'm remembering when you brought out your father's handkerchief, the box of silk cloths from your closet. We talked a little about it that night and I don't necessarily have an epiphanies to add, but their status as objects in your life seems interesting here. They are handkerchiefs, but not to be used. Originally intended as decoration, for you they seem to represent more of an experience with your father, a memory of his own attention to detail, to his manner of dressing with a detailed eye for color and pattern coordination, a personal memory of yours of going through his drawer, disrupting the organization but then carefully putting everything back in place so that he wouldn't know you where there, so your presence wouldn't be discovered. It makes sense not to use them, not to blow your nose in them, because they're not really handkerchiefs anymore, but placeholders of this memory of your father, right?

Yes.

So I wonder, do you think that there is a piece of you in your things? That you have embedded or infused yourself in your surroundings somehow, your memories or your presence? Would you say there's some aspect of your own father in the handkerchiefs? Can object contain something, hold some kind of meaning?

I guess I come off as a pretty basic simple individual. I'm not very sentimental and I don't keep objects, my own or from others. Of my mother and father I have a few pictures - not nearly as many as my brothers and sisters - I have a few pictures, my moms treasure chest, and a few handkerchiefs from dad... They are objects remind me to remember them. It's easy to forget someone you love after so many years because you get so caught up in your daily routines, moving from year to year through your life, that you don't always reflect on the people whom have had a big impact on you as much as you should. So the reason I wanted the chest and the reason I kept the handkerchiefs was to remember, to help me remember two people that were hugely influential in my life, treated me extremely well, took great care of me, and remembering how precious the chest was to my mom, that look she had when she opened it up - we were never affluent or she never had any money or valuable objects, so it was filled with nice little things which she acquired over the years which were associated with her life and her kids, and she would have them in there like treasures, probably not worth a pile of sand, but she treasured them and I can picture her opening it up and fondling the objects inside and showing them to people. I remember my dad and all his ties hanging in his closet and all those handkerchiefs laid out perfectly and how articulate he was when he dressed and the smell of the room and the smell the handkerchiefs contributed to the room, and so they're small sentimental objects which remind me, are used by me to remember. Those are the first memories I have - those that come from the objects - which then allows my mind to expand into more and greater memories of them, which generates more memories of being with them upon different occasions, so they are just the trigger, just the starting point to the recollection, and I want to maintain that recollection. But do I feel or sense my dad in the handkerchief? I'm not sure if that was the question, but no, not other than knowing they were definitely his. I definitely remember seeing them as a kid. He wore them in his jackets, and when he passed my mother asked if I wanted them because she saw how I was dressing, very similarly with ties and matching suits and thought I would use them. I never really did use them - maybe one or two for awhile as a younger man - but I just held on to them really as a trigger for memory.

Do you have other things that you keep that remind you of specific times or events, not of your parents or your family necessarily, but did you keep anything from our house in Corona, or Lakewood, or Anaheim, or other places you have lived?

Not really. Nothing of sentimental value or emotional value or triggers of memories... yes we brought stuff from Corona but only because it was functional and we already had it.

Do you think you're a sentimental person?

Not overly, but yes I am sentimental, not overly sentimental. I do think back on things that have happened in my life and as I get older those things might make my eyes fill up with a little water while I'm thinking about them but no I'm not overly sentimental, nor would I say that I'm not sentimental at all.

Ok, a little off topic. I don't know how to say this without sounding blunt, so at the risk of sounding tactless I will just be blunt. As a man, do you think that your perspective is male? By which I mean, is your worldview attached somehow to your masculinity? Informed by being a man?

No I don't. I think that when it comes to issues of equality - I think this is applicable - for example, should a woman earn as much as a man, is one person of one color more important than one of another color - I think I'm very broad minded concerning factors of equality, so I... there's that old image of a macho man, trying to be a dominant of the two sexes, but I don't feel any of that.

I'm asking less about the sociological aspects and want to emphasize your personal inner state, if we can, your memory and feeling and behavior, your patterns.

Is that driven by the fact that I am a man? I don't know if it is. If I was female I believe I would want to be organized and be good with figures and believe that all human beings are equal and that there's no dominant race. I don't believe that the things I believe really have anything to do with me being a man. They're not complicated, they're not unique. These are characteristics and patterns that any human being could develop and live their lives by, so no I don't think I am defined by my masculinity.

The last thing I wanted to talk to you about a little bit more is, well... I'm curious about your perspective on coincidence, or luck, or fortune, as you conceive of it. You have said before that you don't believe in luck or coincidence necessarily, that they don't have a meaningful impact upon your life, but you believe in fortune. How I interpreted what you said is that fortune implies the application of will, that it can be made through determinism, whereas luck is something more haphazard, a force that we are subject to or victims of somehow. Specifically I am interested in how these concepts might be related to who you are and these patterns that you express and how much of that you would consider to be willed, to be applied or determinate acts, consciously made, as opposed to being subject to devices outside of yourself? For example, some cosmic coincidence or godly predetermination of some kind, of some expression. You could interpret my question as being about control, your own control over yourself perhaps, but maybe you could interpret it as pertaining to creativity, or how active you are in the making of yourself, in recognizing your self as a creative gesture even if you don't consider the arrangement of your environment or the objects which populate it to be creative or expressive compositions. Are we subject to ourselves? Is it all application of will, conscious or not? Do you think or believe we are subject to some force outside of ourselves?

When I was a younger man I used to be very confused about many things, but I always felt like there was someone up there looking down on me. I don't know why, but that was really the feeling I had, that there was something in this universe that decided it was not going to mess with my life other than allowing the better possibilities to occur. I'll give you an example, of luck and good fortune. I was really lucky, the day after my birthday one year I won $5,000 on a scratch off and what I did with that money is buy our first home, a condo in Anaheim hills. $4,500 of it was the down payment and $500 was used towards furnishing the place. Now the luck came out of nowhere. I went to the store to buy a $1 scratch-off and won $5,000 - that's luck! The good fortune comes in when I decided I wasn't going to blow the five grand on a trip to Vegas or something, but I was going to make a substantial investment towards something which becomes one of the greatest investments you ever make in your life which is the home. The good fortune is that we were able to maintain our jobs and make the payment and eventually sell the home for way more than it was worth, selling in one of the best real estate periods that has existed in California, at least during our time there. It could have been bad fortune if I had invested in the condo and the housing market crashed and values plummeted and I was upside down somehow by thousands of dollars - that would be some bad fortune. Our good fortune was that we had to continue doing our part in the arrangement, had to maintain our status at work and maintain our responsibilities and tend to our savings and make the payments and maintain the house in such a way that anyone that would want to own it in the future would love it as soon as they walked in and wouldn't be turned off by anything we were doing. So we had to do all that to reap the benefits of good fortune by selling at a good market and getting more for it than we thought we ever would. That was good fortune, which rolled over into the next home and the next home, where we continued to do our part, working hard at our jobs to make our payments and pay our taxes and kept our purchases in good standing, and fortunately when we went to turn it over it was at a time when we were able to reap the benefits of our years of hard work. I don't find that to be luck. Years before it was bad times and years after it became bad times but we decided upon the right time to make our move so that our fortune resulted from our decision and effort. I say good fortune and luck and two different things. Luck just happens to ya, outta nowhere, holy- wow now I have five grand. Now, what one does with that and how one utilizes that unexpected resource to put oneself in a position.... (distraction) anyway, I had some luck, no much but a little bit, but mostly I've been very fortunate that all the efforts your mom and I put forth together, we were able to benefit from it and not endure a failure or a disaster that wiped out any of our plans, which were able to keep moving forward, and we were very fortunate that we never experience those hardships.

Do you believe there is any force of will outside of ourselves?

Well I was saying to Larry and Debby the other night that I do believe in God. Now, my definition of god is... I absolutely feel that there is a force - like mom would say - in the world, in the universe, however big it is out there, I can feel it. I feel like I can feel it. More so when I'm in nature than anywhere else, I can just feel that there's this energy that influences our lives, and because I don't have any other better description of what it is, this energy force or God, and so many people want to call it God, I say "ok call it God," call it whatever you want. I do believe it exists. Now, that's pretty much where I draw the line. I don't then do what I observe many other people doing, which is a judgment I suppose... they impose what they want it to be back on to it, so that they can feel comfortable thinking about it. "I want it to reflect who I am. I want it to be like me." However they choose to impose upon it or project it into being, so that they can feel comfortable with it... I don't have such a need or feel that it's right to do that. I've always believed that it exists, I think - like I said when I was younger I felt like "wow, something or somebody is looking out for me. How can I be this fortunate?" The most fortunate I have ever been in my entire life is when I had my back surgery. That's the first time I ever had surgery or had anything physically wrong or financially wrong... I mean that was the worst thing that ever happened to me and that's nothing really. I don't see it as a "woe is me," I thought of it as "it's about time some of this stuff caught up to me." I looked at it like, if something had to happen, I'd take it this way over a lot of things. So, I've been really fortunate. Something must be looking out for me. I don't know how to define that, and I don't feel like I necessarily want to try to define it anymore. I will say that I feel it exists and I just accept it.

Can I ask you, where or how do you feel it? Would you say that it's in for body, or that it's something you experience with your senses, or is it mental perhaps, something that's an idea that you think about like a concept but is not so physical?

I don't dwell on it. I think that it is physical, I think that it is mental, I think that it is in your senses, I think that it is all of that. It's just almost like it's raining on ya... you just... you sense it, and because you sense it it's almost like it sweeps this warm feeling over you, an inspired feeling, it's spiritual. It feels almost relief, like you can take a deep breath, I'm so gratified that I can sense this. Now I sense something and I seem to feel it physically, a relieving... stress relieving, spiritual feeling... and then it starts to play on your mind. "What is this that I'm feeling? What is this that I'm sensing?" You sense it, you feel it, it's like a spiritual relief, and then you think about it, so it's all three, but the thinking about it part is the most complex, trying to determine what the hell it is... who's right and who's wrong, all these different philosophies, all these different gods, and I just don't want to think about that anymore. I just feel good that I feel it, I feel that it's a positive thing, I don't want to over think it or analyze it, it's been good to me, and now I just want to leave it alone.

That's fine. I'm not trying to force you to describe deities or God... but I'm very interested in how you describe it as relief.

Yeah, like a stress relief ya know, like a "whew" (exhales) like you can take this deep exhaled breath and it just seems to relieve stress in your body.

So do you feel a lot of stress on a regular basis?

Not from life. Self-induced pettiness is what I feel most and that I blow off really well. I mean I don't take it from day to day and usually not even from hour to hour. Most of the stress is trivial stuff which doesn't matter to a hill of beans and I realize it quickly and it has no lasting effect on my life, but I don't feel stress from life, no. I really feel that nothing is causing me stress, except myself, and that is not deep or really that important to the next hour or the next day of my life or any future plans. It will never get me to a point where I feel like I need mental or medical attention for anxiety or depression or anything like that. I don't feel like stress is detrimental to my health in any way.

Do you call it stress or do you call it anxiety?

Eh, maybe just a bad habit.

Do you feel this way consciously? Is this bad habit a conscious behavior? Are you aware of it while you are doing it?

Now I am.

Do you exercise it consciously, or do it intentionally?

No I never do it intentionally. It's a part of me that just comes out. I used to do it unconsciously and would be more belligerent about it, but now I actually sense and recognize it while I'm doing it and try - not always successfully - to tone it down and lower it and get it out of the way as fast as possible so it doesn't have any lingering effect on either me or Rose, or anybody else. It mostly only comes out with Rose because we've been together so long and we've been discussing similar things with each other for so long, so sometimes some frustration comes out for her too sometimes, but I don't believe that it's detrimental. It's one of those things that you recognize, get rid of it, and that helps it from reoccurring anytime soon, but sure enough it crops up again and you go through it again and the more your do that the more you understand that it's not intentional and won't cause any lasting harm.

So I take it based on your description that you would not call this suffering, this is not an ailment, but would describe this as something rather mundane...

It's not suffering it's a bad habit.

Have you always had this habit, for as long as you can remember? Or is this something which developed?

I developed it but I was young. I think it was probably before we got married... yeah, I had some frustrating times. Yeah, sometime after high school, maybe after college.

Would you say that it's related to your desire for privacy? I don't want to put words in your mouth... it seems like it creates difficulty with others and you are protective of your space, or is there no relationship there?

I have never viewed it that way. My first reaction is no... I don't know why... it's a trait in our family and I don't think we have taught each other how to do it I think we just kinda do it, but (you and your mother) talk about how "you're loud" and "you're opinionated" and "you're easily frustrated," meaning the Wyche family. That's what I'm talking about as the self-induced stress, that triggers me to not think as clearly as I should and then I say things that maybe I shouldn't say and there's frustration when people try to respond and they don't understand ya... but we're not talking about life or death situations. Usually it's about stuff that doesn't matter. It's about a thing, or a situation that will come and go quickly and we won't even remember it in a day or two.

And this other state of mind, this spiritual understanding you described... that serves as a relief to that self-induced stress?

I haven't really ever though of it that way either...

I thought that was how you described it, this spiritual feeling washing over you like a warm rain, a relief from the stress, and the stress isn't from like or from the world and it certainly is not suffering, but it's a self-imposed state...

They're separate things. This sensation I tried to explain is not regular, it's not daily, it's not even monthly, it's maybe several times a year, usually experienced outside, never inside or based on a ceremony or someone giving a speech or something. It's always just an individual thing where I'm at a spot outside somewhere or traveling and I can sense and feel it and feel good about it and then forget about it really. Maybe it only happens three times a year, but those three times are powerful enough and memorable enough and you've experienced it enough through your life to say that I have to believe it exists. I personally have to believe that this force exists and is influencing my life.

Do you ever consider trying to replicate that experience, or strive to experience it more often? It seems like a powerful experience worth having. I can appreciate that you can feel it through a ceremony, but if it's about being outside...

Go outside more?

If it's about communing with nature or communing with yourself or with a greater power or whatever it is, in your mind or in your body or up above, maybe it's in the place or in the journey to a place, it seems to be undeniably beneficial.

Yeah, to reiterate that I am a basic and simple individual, and I use that to proceed my thought that "no I don't," I really don't seek to have that experience more often or try to evoke it in any way. I just appreciate it when it happens, as a reminder that I feel that way, a reminder that I'm not here alone doing it all by myself, then it passes and I move on. I'm pleased that I experienced it, feel replenished by it, and then I don't think about it anymore. I don't feel the need to... pursue it in any other way.

Ok... if you were to experience that feeling more often, do you think it would change you? Or could? Change your patterns? Would it make you a different person?

Based on the 3 or 4 times a year that I feel it, I would have to say no, because it doesn't change me when I feel it those times, so I can't imagine feeling it 2 or 3 or 4 times more would really... it's enough of a sample size to say "hey, I'm grateful that I've felt that, if in fact it's something that has granted me good fortune then thank you - I don't know why I deserve it but thank you very much."

Does that experience have value?

To whom?

To you only? Or to anyone or anything?

I don't know about value or important. I feel gratified that I sense it. I am happy that I relate to good fortune, maybe it's the power of positive thinking I don't know, but certainly it has been nothing but a good positive feeling and certainly everyone needs more of those in their life, but I don't over-think it at all, and I don't seek it. It happens when it happen and I try to appreciate it when it does.

OK. Thank you for this.

Sure.

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